Epoxy Reviews - User Notes and Product Feedback - What Other Buyers Report

Product User Notes

(listed by product)

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(email 6/25/09 to Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.): I would like to say thank you to Paul for taking the time and chatting with me. I had various questions and he answered all of them. His expertise in the marine world with the capabilities of his epoxy knowledge gave me a good sense of mind. I have a 18' i/o with a delaminated inner skin on the transom his time on the phone and tricks of the trade were a real lifsaver and saved me a lot of mental turmoil. Again:
Thank you Paul.
Sincerely
Scott

User Feedback...

ACRYLIC POLY

Feedback from user applying to boat hull. Two coats rolled on with foam roller (may have used brush too for 'tip and roll'). Sanded between coats to remove any roughness. Last coat with for mirror gloss. Thinned the product 30% with xylene. Reported an awesome gloss finish coat. Noted that he could still smell the solvents 24 hours later but perhaps a bit of tackiness, but rock hard after 48 hours.

The solvents in the coating may lift or remove the painted coatings in your mixing rod thus tinting the Acrylic Poly with an undesired color.

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Although urethane coatings are NEVER offically recommended for immersion service, several customers (and myself) have successfully tested it underwater.

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Do not use in a dusty setting. In basements etc. dust can settle on the fresh coating within 10-60 seconds creating what looks like tiny bubbles.

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Bio Clear 810 and Acrylic Poly UV Plus


Josie Lewis (5/2010) wrote:
Hello: I've read your site with interest. I am an artist using a 2 part clear coat resin, marketed as a tabletop resin. Currently I use EX-74 from Envirotex which claims to have a UV blocker, but in a recent UV test did not perform any better than the cheaper stuff. I make wall pieces that have several layers of resin and average about an inch thick. My work is designed for indoor display and I tell my buyers to keep the pieces out of direct sunlight (which is always desirable for artwork).

I am becoming deeply concerned about the yellowing potential, as you can imagine. It seems from your website you indicate that some kind of a protective topcoat can be helpful (the Acrylic Poly UV plus?). What would you recommend to have most UV resistance possible for my particular application?

Josie Lewis (6/2010) wrote:
Hi Paul: I recently purchased BioClear and Acrylic Poly UV Plus from your company. I have access to a UV chamber which simulates high altitude direct UV exposure. I thought you might be interested in my findings. I used a Masonite panel painted white and then coated with BioClear. On half of the BioClear coated panel, I brushed on one coat of UV Poly and put it in the chamber for 644 hours at 50 C (the heat accelerates the exposure). Attached is a picture of the results. The masonite cracked a bit and separated due to a bit of wetness in the wood (unrelated to the resin). The BioClear ambered dramatically within about 50 hours. After 644 hours, the UV Poly showed a slight bit of ambering from the original control but it is marginal at worst. The technician who ran the test said if it isn't yellow at 644 hours it is basically indestructible. I also tested several other 2-part resin products with the UV Poly and had the same result. You have a great product. I now feel secure knowing that my resin art, protected with the Poly UV Plus, will be archival and protected for long years. I will be ordering more soon!
Best, Josie (6/2010)

VENDOR COMMENTS:

The original 2 part poly clear we sold was like everyone else's - essentially no UV protection. I got the factory to reformulate using max UV blockers and UV absorbers (there is a difference). Raw material costs went up almost $10 a gallon (guess that is why other folks don't add them). You cannot put UV blockers into epoxy resin systems - it is a chemistry thing.

My sun exposure tests are just trays in the parking lot. I seem to have similar results. I have found for the UV poly (and with other coatings for sealing and waterproofing) two coats, not one, make a huge difference. Suspect you would be even more impressed with 2 coats of the UV poly.

As far as the epoxy goes, the 810 yellows less (or at least much slower) than most or all of the other epoxies. Also, all epoxies take 5-10 days for full cure. Suspect you would find different amounts of yellowing if you had begun your testing with 2 day old 810 epoxy and 2 week old 810 epoxy.

Josie Lewis (6/2010) wrote:

Paul: I'm totally fine with you using my comments! I hope it helps someone. As to your questions about final surface, I definitely have problems with that. Below is my routine for getting a really nice surface (it ain't easy). I have a spray booth, but I have problems getting little flecks of stuff in the resin/poly no matter what precautions I take. (VENDOR COMMENTS: HAVE HAD REPORTS OF THAT HAPPENING MINUTES AFTER ROLLING OR BRUSHING - SUSPECT DUST IN THE AIR) The resin is easier than the poly, which you are right in saying is super tricky. Because I am very concerned about yellowing, I've figured out a way to make the poly work...

Multiple coats of two part resin (eventually 1-4 inches thick) (this is The Art) (see www.josielewis.com)

After final coat of resin, I allow the resin to cure for a couple of weeks

I rough up the surface with 100 grit paper

I brush on two thick coats of Poly UV (thin, multiple coats were cracking. You mentioned earlier you thought thin coats would be harder. I haven't noticed any differencE)

I let that rest for a week or so

I sand down the Poly UV with 1000 grit paper (or slightly rougher if there's dirt/hair, etc)

Then I spray it with a auto clear coat (from a can, I don't have professional spray equipment)

THEN, I sand it progressively with 600-1000 grit, then buff it with a professional random orbital buffer with a cutting compound and then a polishing compound. I basically do the same thing that they will do with a car to get it nice and shiny. (BTW I use a spray booth for the wet work, and my garage for the sanding, and I wear a OSHA ventilation mask for everything--got to be careful with this stuff.)

VENDOR COMMENTS:

The Acrylic Poly UV Plus is very high solvent, (like auto clear coat). It works best with multi thin coats. Thick applications will result in solvent trapping below the surface - keeping it ‘soft'. That said, it is a soft coating. It likes to go over non-porous surfaces, typically a new/fresh epoxy base coat.

ALUTHANE

Feedback for application to boat hull has its own page www.epoxyproducts.com/aluthane.html

BASIC NO BLUSH

BASIC NO BLUSH™ Marine Epoxy - Selected for the construction of BIG BLUE, the 14 person vessel seeking the Blue Riband Trophy in The Transatlantic World Record Rowing Expedition 2010. See www.rocexpedition.com BASIC NO BLUSH™ Marine Epoxy - Selected by JEM Watercraft (www.jemwatercraft.com) for the construction of their case study/prototype, construction documented, "Sit On Top" canoe project (2009) BASIC NO BLUSH™ Marine Epoxy - The Professional's Choice when Price, Quality, Reputation, and Performance matter

Subject: Sugary resin
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005
From: Jim
To: Paul Oman


Hi Paul,

I have a question about shelf life of the No Blush resin I bought last April 21st (invoice 5922). I used about 1/3 of the 1.5 gal then, and stored in rest in a cool dry room. I used a little more in September, and it was fine, but When I opened it in December, it was shot. The hardener is fine, but the resin looks just like sugared honey. Would a slight amount of contaminination cause that? I was careful, and I know I didn't switch any tools from one can to the other. Is there anyway to reclaim the granulating mess? More reasonable question: Is it possible to buy more resin without the hardener? Thanks for any advice,

Jim
-----------------
Hi Jim,

Good news. It is not a problem. Most clear epoxy resins will crystallize over time just like honey. Fix is the same. Heat it up in oven or microwave or warm spot. Say 100 - 125 degrees for a few hours (or minutes in the microwave) will restore it back to new.

It will probably tend to re-crystallize more easily now as even with melting there always seems to be a 'micro-crystal' seed that will start re-crystallizing going again in a few weeks. Same fix - just melt them away!

Yes, we do sell just part A or B to our existing customers to fix, mistakes, spills, etc.

regards

Paul Oman

more info on crystallizing epoxy- click here

BASIC NO BLUSH - TURNING WHITE!

From time to time we get reports of the epoxy turning white within about 12 hours of application. These reports usually happen in the fall or late summer. I've had exactly this same thing happen on canoe seats I was coating/sealing with clear marine epoxy (not Basic No Blush). The cause is mositure/dew/fog forming on the hours old epoxy at just the wrong time during its cure cycle. Trapped mini water droplets look white (we've also seen the same on patio stones coated/recoated with epoxy after it rains etc.). It is more common in the fall with lower nightime temps that approach or pass thru the dew point. Which is why fog is usually a fall/spring event. It is easy to forget that epoxy curing is an exothermic event and moisture can affect it. Note the Amine Blush is a waxy film forming due to unseen moisture in the air during the epoxy cure. Many epoxy blush - the better ones, like our no-blush have little or no blush. The white coloring seen in this example is well beyond epoxy blush and is actually 'water' now in the epoxy. The fix is not to epoxy when temps etc. are expected to drop a good bit in the next few hours (like in the fall!) -- i.e. outside afternoon or evening epoxy work at those critical times of the year could be trouble. We don't see this much during the height of summer when evening temps generally stay high and well above the dew points. All you can do is and off the epoxy and recoat.

5/31/07 - update - yes it is water - perhaps a splash or bird pee or something during the critical 'set up time' as the epoxy begins to harden.

BASIC NO BLUSH - WINTER CURE

3/08

The last two months I've been using the winter cure you sell, in several applications, all of them in unheated areas. The weather here in the Pacific Northwest is very humid and about 35 - 45 degrees. In all cases the material has set up enough to sand for repeated coats in 24 hours! In a couple instances, I've thrown patches on and even painted them the next day, because they were outside and we seldom go two days without rain this time of year. If I'd done that with the Sys. Three (blush) I've used for years, the paint would slow the cure for weeks and I'd eventually have to sand it all off because it would not stick.

I have a steady flow of old restorations in the works, so you will be hearing from me again! I've passed on some of your data sheets to shipwright friends of mine, so hopefully they will be in touch, too. In addition to such a reliable product, the pricing is right! Thanks again, and good luck on the kayak.

peace, michael

7/10

I used it to assemble an end coaming in the cockpit. I mixed it up at 1pm and the temp in the cockpit was 98 degrees. Outside it was 88 degrees. It had rained about 4 hours earlier and humidity was really high. All parts were epoxy painted and then glued with a mix of epoxy
and wood flour by 1:30pm. By 2:30 the epoxy was still moveable - I could fair the thickened stuff easily with a stick. By about 4:15 it was
non-sticky but I could still make an indentation with my fingernail. By 6pm I couldn't do that anymore - it felt very hard. This is in contrast
to the standard cure which in these temps is only workable for between 10 and 20 minutes after mixing and is hard and non sticky within the first hour.

VENDOR NOTE: YOU CAN BLEND THE SLOW SUMMER CURE WITH THE REGULAR CURE TO ADJUST THE WORKING TIME.

11/24/08 AUTHOR'S NOTE: I'm doing epoxy/fiberglass cloth boat building here in NH using the Basic No Blush with the Winter (fast) curing agent. The epoxy is stored in my basement at 50 degrees. The boat building is happening in my garage at temps in the mid 30s. The epoxy is hard the next day.

GLUING WITH BASIC NO BLUSH EPOXY

The only point I can make about using epoxy to glue surfaces together is not to clamp very tightly. It is too easy to sqeeze all of the epoxy out of the joint which of course means the bond will fail.

One of my customers does a lot of gluing (with our epoxies) professionally. He has kindly offered to share his methods/comments:

Hi Paul,

I don't know if I do anything all that different from anyone else while gluing teak. I do a good bit of work on large sportfishing boats here in south Jersey. Part of the style of these boats are teak decks (1/2" thick by 1 7/8" wide verticle grain teak) and coverboards on the gunwales. Screws and plugs are not acceptable and the boats that have been screwed and plugged regret it when they have been sanded through in a few years. Some of my customers have been a little concerned when I tell them the wood is "only" held by epoxy. They have all heard of it but are not too familiar with it. Business men, not boat builders. I tell them epoxy is, first and foremost, glue and all the cold molded boats are "only" held together with it. It just happens to be good for other things as well. Alot of people seem to think epoxy is some sort of fiberglass resin not glue.
My routine for gluing a deck starts with grinding off the paint and leaving a very rough but fair surface. I use 40 grit discs for grinding. Obviously on new boats I dewax the surface with interlux 202 before I grind but it probably isn't neccasary. The teak itself gets hit with the grinder or sanded across the grain to roughen it up good. The dust gets blown off and then (most important I think) I wipe the gluing side with laquer thinner or alcohol until no more oil comes off on the rag. This usually takes a few times and makes me wish I had a helper. I like to set the wood, glueing side up, in the sun to heat up then wet out the wood while it is still warm. I think I get deeper penetration into the wood this way. I don't thin the epoxy but I will warm it up to help it soak in. I am also a nut when it comes to wetting out everything. Doesn't have to be puddles of epoxy but no dry spots. I don't use much clamping pressure just enough to hold the wood in position. Probably nothing new here, just careful attention to the details. I tell my customers "I can charge you the first time to do it right, but if something fails I have to fix it for free." I can honestly say I have never had to do any warranty work.

Another interesting thing is how hot a teak deck gets. I never wear shoes in the summer (great to be me) and after a short time in the sun these decks are too hot to stand on! I know how epoxy softens in heat but have never seen a single plank fail to stay down. Same thing with the coverboards, though the wood is massive compared to the teak decking. I have seen other people's work fail (job security) but always from poor prep, or improper thickener. I fix it and pick up a customer.

Thanks Paul for a great product, great service, and that crazy website.
Patrick, PF Custom Marine

BIO CLEAR 810

In a small container (plastic cup) I am able to pour several inches of this product without the 'heat of reaction' melting the cup, frothing the epoxy, or distorting the smooth surface of the epoxy. However, in large pours we have had reports of stress cracking in the epoxy. One was a very large pour of many gallons - thickness unkown, and the other was a 3 gallon pour at 1 inch thick. Solution is thinner pours - say 1/2 inch or less per pour layer.

1) have had no reports of problems covering new photographs, but customer coating an old photo reported it turned red/orange when contacted with the epoxy. No reports of printed materials having problems with the inks running due to the epoxy except for some very cheap crape paper type party decorations.

2) Customer glued down coins with a drop of hot glue. The space around the drop of hot glue on the bottom of the coin is filled with air and when the epoxy was poured a ring of bubbles appeared around the edge of the coin.

3) After 20 or 30 minutes past the time you pour do not attempt to pop bubbles with a torch or do other things. The epoxy is well on its way to setting up and disturbing it can results in 'ridges', ripples, etc.

As a professional woodworker, I was recently contracted to make a 14 foot curling table for a customer. After doing some research, I came across your Bio-Clear 810 epoxy product and chose it for the price and the eccentric web site. I figured that such a "different" web site MUST be offset by a truly quality product.

I was right!

This was the first time I had ever attempted an epoxy pour, so after some practice and reading the provided literature, I figured out the technique for pouring a 14 foot x 22" top.

My customer was delighted with the product and I hope to sell many more of these curling tables in the United States.

Thanks guys !


John P Rose (10/06)
330-416-8207
http://customfurniturecreations.com

Bio Clear 810 resin (part A) is quick to crystallize and turn milky (sometimes within a month of manufacture). Warming the resin at about 100 degrees overnight (or in a microwave for about 15 minutes) will fix it and make it clear again. See our page on crystallization of epoxies. www.epoxyproducts.com/crystal.html

I used a palm sander with 60 grit initially and worked my way up to 400. I then used an electric buffer with plastic polish, they sell it in fine medium and coarse and you work your way up like sandpaper. I finished off with Meguiars plasticX.

As for the polyurethane it was Minwax brand and high gloss. I applied it with a foam roller initially and smoothed out the bubbles with a wide brush. I used the roller to put the polyurethane down in a hurry so it would be wet still and level out smoother. I was told after the second coat to use a lambs wool pad like they use for hard wood floors and I did with pretty good results. The only way it would have looked better was if it was done in a completely dust free environment. The finish is quite clear and any scratches that occur now I just use the PlasticX with the buffer.

The wood blocks were pine I assume and they bubbled like crazy. Tiny bubbles and hundreds of them. Polyurethane any wood beforehand and be safe. (see picture at www.epoxyproducts.com/bartop.html)

Thanks again

James

Hi Paul,

To start we glued black formica to the counter top 3/4" plywood base and built a 5/16" plywood strip dam around it. The release agent was waxed paper and was placed between the dam and the plywood countertop base then run up and over the dam. Everything was taped in place to include the bottom seam between the dam and the base. The dam was attached with screws and was pretty tight. This was done on a boat so we had to level the whole thing. We placed glass flat stones, which were a uniform 3/8" in height, all over the formica and poured the Bio Clear to the top of the dam. My wife wanted a little relief with the top of the stones showing so we poured until we got the effect she wanted. We found we needed an aluminum yard stick to spread the resin over the top of the rocks because the resin tended to flow up the rocks but not all of the way over them. The Bio Clear flowed out nicely with no trapped bubbles or any other problems. The few bubbles we had were very small and worked thier own way out. I think a nice steady slow pour was also one of the reasons we didn't get many bubbles. The room temperature was a consistent 72 degrees. We ended up using less than the gallon of Bio Clear - probably about three quarts. The counter top is 8' by 22". Frankly we were amazed and surprised that the project turned out so well. I think the key to our success was following the very complete instructions and tips on your website and taking our time to make sure everything was set up correctly.

As I remember you already do this but put a lot of emphasis on following the instructions exactly, reading all of the information on your website and to taking the time to preparing everything very carefully.

When the bathroom is finished I'll send you some photos.

Thanks again and best regards,

Notes from Progressive Epoxy Polymers (the sellers)

just a few additional (or repeat) comments.

1) mix well but don't try to get every last drop of the mix product. What collects in the bottom of the mix pail after sitting empty for several minutes is epoxy from the sides, bottom and bottom/side edge. This is not well mixed and don't use it.

2) if the part A is cloudy or milky it has crystallized a bit. Heat to about 100 or 110 degrees overnight, (say in a box or cabinet with a light bulb) or in a microwave (for about 15 minutes). It will turn clear again and is ready for use. Crystallization is common in clear epoxy resins.

3) Nearly all of our customers are first time users and, excluding a drip or two, a few bubbles, etc. the epoxy pours pretty much go well for everyone. When folks have problems, those problems come back to us so products that have a lot of issues are just too much of a headache for us to sell. While we sell a lot of the Bio Clear 810, it is not a 'problem product'. The point I am trying to make is that people usually get the results they want or expect (or can live with!).

4) Keep some unmixed epoxy aside to repair/fix anything that goes wrong. For example you might drill out an air bubble and then fill the hole with more 810.

5) some folks 'test' their surfaces for leaks and level-ness with water before using the 810. Then drain water and let dry before using the 810. Better to find the leaks etc. with 'cheap' water first!

6) the end result is sort of a clear medium hard plastic. It can be sanded and drilled and shaped. Then polished back to smooth (maybe clear) with fine sandpaper/grit (sorry I don't know if we are talking 1000 grit stuff etc. - haven't done it but others have). You can also remove 'cloudy sanding scratches' with a thin clear coat of any kind of clear coating (I have people 'test' this with clear nail polish' over a cloudy scratched surface).

7) one of our semi pro customers likes to do a final thin topcoat instead of the entire thickness in one pour. He says it gives a smoother surface. We assume to at that point bubbles and other issues are 'fixed' in the previousl pours. That said, I think most folks just do a single pour.

8) you can pour the next layer as soon as the first layer is semi-sold and the temperature of the first pour is back to room temperature. This is probably just a few hours later.

Paul (10/07) wrote:

For those of you who didn't know, a major project of mine, with a lot of help from my friends, this summer has been to build a coffee table from scratch with the table top being old cigar box tops. Most of these tops came from cigar boxes I had saved from way back when, when I was smoking cigars. The idea was to build a table, lay out the box tops and then put a top over it of epoxy. I'm quite certain I made every possible mistake, but it was all in practice runs. This is the table finished and in my living room. It looks fantastic.

Regarding “advise” for others who are interested in doing a project like this –

1. Read all instructions.

2. Re-read all instructions.

3. Follow all instructions.

4. Be absolutely certain you use parts A and B in the correct amounts.

5. The mix is critical. Do everything you can to mix thoroughly, but do not mix too fast. These bubbles are hard to “heat” out after the pour.

6. The set time is for real. Don’t dawdle.

A recent customer pointed out that when coating over newspaper text in a bar that the epoxy (as would any similar coat coating) turned the paper 'clear' and the printing on the back of the page clearly showed thru on-top/overlaying the text on the front of the page. Result - a non readable garble of 'ink'.

I am becoming deeply concerned about the yellowing potential, as you can imagine. It seems from your website you indicate that some kind of a protective topcoat can be helpful (the Acrylic Poly UV plus?). What would you recommend to have most UV resistance possible for my particular application?

Josie Lewis (6/2010) wrote:
Hi Paul: I recently purchased BioClear and Acrylic Poly UV Plus from your company. I have access to a UV chamber which simulates high altitude direct UV exposure. I thought you might be interested in my findings. I used a Masonite panel painted white and then coated with BioClear. On half of the BioClear coated panel, I brushed on one coat of UV Poly and put it in the chamber for 644 hours at 50 C (the heat accelerates the exposure). Attached is a picture of the results. The masonite cracked a bit and separated due to a bit of wetness in the wood (unrelated to the resin). The BioClear ambered dramatically within about 50 hours. After 644 hours, the UV Poly showed a slight bit of ambering from the original control but it is marginal at worst. The technician who ran the test said if it isn't yellow at 644 hours it is basically indestructible. I also tested several other 2-part resin products with the UV Poly and had the same result. You have a great product. I now feel secure knowing that my resin art, protected with the Poly UV Plus, will be archival and protected for long years. I will be ordering more soon!
Best, Josie (6/2010)

VENDOR COMMENTS:

The original 2 part poly clear we sold was like everyone else's - essentially no UV protection. I got the factory to reformulate using max UV blockers and UV absorbers (there is a difference). Raw material costs went up almost $10 a gallon (guess that is why other folks don't add them). You cannot put UV blockers into epoxy resin systems - it is a chemistry thing.

My sun exposure tests are just trays in the parking lot. I seem to have similar results. I have found for the UV poly (and with other coatings for sealing and waterproofing) two coats, not one, make a huge difference. Suspect you would be even more impressed with 2 coats of the UV poly.

As far as the epoxy goes, the 810 yellows less (or at least much slower) than most or all of the other epoxies. Also, all epoxies take 5-10 days for full cure. Suspect you would find different amounts of yellowing if you had begun your testing with 2 day old 810 epoxy and 2 week old 810 epoxy.

Josie Lewis (6/2010) wrote:

Paul: I'm totally fine with you using my comments! I hope it helps someone. As to your questions about final surface, I definitely have problems with that. Below is my routine for getting a really nice surface (it ain't easy). I have a spray booth, but I have problems getting little flecks of stuff in the resin/poly no matter what precautions I take. (VENDOR COMMENTS: HAVE HAD REPORTS OF THAT HAPPENING MINUTES AFTER ROLLING OR BRUSHING - SUSPECT DUST IN THE AIR) The resin is easier than the poly, which you are right in saying is super tricky. Because I am very concerned about yellowing, I've figured out a way to make the poly work...

Multiple coats of two part resin (eventually 1-4 inches thick) (this is The Art) (see www.josielewis.com)

After final coat of resin, I allow the resin to cure for a couple of weeks

I rough up the surface with 100 grit paper

I brush on two thick coats of Poly UV (thin, multiple coats were cracking. You mentioned earlier you thought thin coats would be harder. I haven't noticed any differencE)

I let that rest for a week or so

I sand down the Poly UV with 1000 grit paper (or slightly rougher if there's dirt/hair, etc)

Then I spray it with a auto clear coat (from a can, I don't have professional spray equipment)

THEN, I sand it progressively with 600-1000 grit, then buff it with a professional random orbital buffer with a cutting compound and then a polishing compound. I basically do the same thing that they will do with a car to get it nice and shiny. (BTW I use a spray booth for the wet work, and my garage for the sanding, and I wear a OSHA ventilation mask for everything--got to be careful with this stuff.)

VENDOR COMMENTS:

The Acrylic Poly UV Plus is very high solvent, (like auto clear coat). It works best with multi thin coats. Thick applications will result in solvent trapping below the surface - keeping it ‘soft'. That said, it is a soft coating. It likes to go over non-porous surfaces, typically a new/fresh epoxy base coat.

Daniel Skira -- Skira Yacht Design wrote (5/2010):

I just received my two quart of coal tar epoxy I ordered. What I really like is the literature and all the information you put with the package. It is very useful. I used normal coal tar until now, and look forward to try your product.

VENDOR COMMENTS:

Hi Daniel – Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I too like the coal tar epoxy - rolls on nicely. But coal tar epoxies have other issues (see www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html - soft/flexible, may not be able to paint over especially if old and sun weathered, etc.) and I often recommend cm 15 epoxy as an alternative to the coal tar.

If you notice a difference with our coal tar epoxy it would be because of the high end epoxy part of the coal tar epoxy we use. Most coal tar epoxies have a reputation for using very low end epoxy.


Daniel Skira -- Skira Yacht Design wrote (5/2010):

Paul, – The one to one mix is absolutely the way to go. Fantastically easy. The product is very good, goes like a charm on wood, dry nicely without any shrinkage. I built the boat outside, at 50F no problem even we had light rain, no problems.

I really like your coal tar epoxy. A real time saver compared to the classic one. The quality of the coal tar is the same as the high end one component I used for almost 30 years. But yours dries! No need to wait one month anymore! No need to boil it either like the other one, to have a good penetration. Your coal tar epoxy seams to have a very good penetration. I even used on some larges holes on the keel, and it worked like a charm. Impossible to do the same with the non-epoxy one. I will be sending another order. I am hooked on yours! I will probably paint the underwater part of the hull with your coal tar epoxy. Many thanks.


Daniel Skira -- Skira Yacht Design wrote (5/2010):

Hi Paul – Just painted with regular oil based painting on top of your coal tar epoxy without any preparation. Dry neat, and seems to bond. I sanded two coats of coal tar epoxy with a belt sander and 36 grit belt, but with a light handling of the machine. Perfect, no problems. Painted on top with regular oil based paint. No problem.

So my underwater hull will be painted with your coal tar epoxy. Then I will apply a coat of antifouling. Not the sides since I know the problem of epoxy and the sunshine. The elongation of you coal tar is a perfect match for my wooden hull.
All my best. - > Daniel


Daniel Skira -- Skira Yacht Design wrote (5/2010):

Hi Paul – After curing for 7 days, the coal tar epoxy I applied to a steel bar was even not touched. I used a heavy hammer to bend the steel bar. The secret is let it cure at least 7 days and it is hard and flexible. It is the greatest coal tar epoxy I ever tried. You can post my trial on your website. This an amazing product. But I repeat, the curing time is mandatory. Sometime people think epoxy is immediate, they are wrong. I will come for more, the hull will be primed underwater with your coal tar epoxy.
All my best – Daniel

Hello Paul,

I own a 1986 Hunter Legend 40 sailboat. I bought the boat in the fall of 2004 and had the hull below the waterline was sandblasted in the spring of 2005. The hull was then coated by the boat yard with a VC-Tar coal tar epoxy at great expense. by the fall of 2005, barely 5 months later, the hull started showing signs of osmosis again below the waterline. This was likely due to the very thin coat of coal tar applied by the boat yard.

In the spring of 2006 I proceeded to sand off the VC-Tar from the entire hull and applied five coats your coal tar expoxy. Once dry, I applied a hard antifouling paint. The coal tar has held up beautifully and is still in good condition after 5 years. The osmosis has not resurfaced, indicating that the coal tar is doing its job as a barrier coat.

My only dissapointment is that the curing time can be lengthy and if you apply antifouling paint over the coal tar before it is fully cured, the paint will craze. That said, I have since sanded the antifouling paint off and subsequent paint coatings hold up well on the rougher surface.

Regards, Fulvio

SPAR VARNISHES OVER EPOXY - over the years I have seen/heard/read accounts of traditional varnishes refusing to dry or drying very slowly over a base of epoxy. Varnishes are regularly applied over epoxy covered kayaks and canoes all the time. All different brands of epoxy and all different brands of oil based varnishes. Problems only seem to happen once every few hundred times. The general conclusion is an incompatible relationship between that epoxy and that varnish. Sounds good, but that epoxy and that varnish have been used together for years without problems.

I have no way to proof this, but I suspect it comes from not carefully mixing the varnish. Open a can of varnish and it looks 'ready to go' and I suspect that most of the time it is. But varnish is made of resins and solvents and perhaps additives. Perhaps they 'settle out' a little bit, I don't really know. I suggest you SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY mix the varnish with a tongue depressor/stick.

LOW V

One user reports a 'sanding window' at about 6 - 12 hours where the Low V is hard enough to sand without gumming up the sandpaper, but soft enough to 'sand' several time faster than when the epoxy is a lot harder, such as a day or two or three later.

(note: also had a user that decided adding the fumed silica thickener was really necessary to keep the Low V epoxy from running. Saw a big difference between using it and not using it. Note too that our EZ Thick, thickener will stir into the epoxy much easier than the fumed silica, but that fumed siica has been the favorite thickener of epoxy for many many years. Fumed silica is often called by one of its largest brand names Cab-o-sil (tm)).

(SEE WWW.EPOXYPRODUCTS.COM/COPPER4U.HTML)

Hi Paul:

... was finally ready to begin coating the hull with the Low V late Sunday afternoon.
And, after looking around both in my town and Port zzzzzz, was unable to locate the Xylene thinner, so just went with the low V, but tried to add some fumed silica. However, we had wind and was difficult to get this in with the epoxy before it "Blew away!"

(note: also had a user that decided adding the fumed silica thickener was really necessary to keep the Low V epoxy from running. Saw a big difference between using it and not using it. Note too that our EZ Thick, thickener will stir into the epoxy much easier than the fumed silica, but that fumed siica has been the favorite thickener of epoxy for many many years. Fumed silica is often called by one of its largest brand names Cab-o-sil (tm)).

Another problem was that I poured the Low V and curing agent into a roller tray and wind could get at this
perhaps more easily than a bucket. I had thought the 9" paint pad would work well, but soon had the epoxy dripping off this pad and all over the place. Seemed especially bad in areas that I had to "Look up," like
directly under the boat. Ours is a catamaran and has much surface area similar to a ceiling. The Low V just would load up in the pad and any pressure would result in the stuff coming off the pad and onto the
handle, dripping, etc. This was more of a mess than I could deal with, so just got rid of the pads, went with a 3" brush. Could control things a whole lot better with the brush. We did get many runs, but generally were able to "Go back" over these before things got really set up. We just got one coat of low V on the hull, then cleaned up and made the drive back home. So, maybe this was just me, but I do not think the paint pad (Rubbermaid) works well with the Low V.

(for watery thin epoxies, like the Low V, use a brush, not a roller)

So, what did I learn:1. Not to mix quite as large of quantity as I did. I mixed 32oz. of low V with 16 oz. of curing agent for a total of approximately 48 ozs. Both wife and myself had this quantity in a roller pan. Ended up throwing some out as could not use.

(note: temp was about 80 degrees F)

2. The paint pad is not the tool to use with the Low V. For us, the brush worked a whole lot better.

3. Wear a hat, got some of the mixture in hair, and today it's a mess! Has anyone commented on the difficulty of using a hair brush when your hair is part cured epoxy??

4. If adding the silica, and probable also goes for the copper powder, dump everything into a bucket and get some mixing sticks (paddles first). I did not have any good tool for mixing.

....... Just happy to pass along the information based upon our experience. I guess I would just preference remarks with "This worked for us" based upon temperature and humidity. But we pretty much stuck with those ratios and amounts, and with two people brushing could use the material in the time interval outlined. As for coverage of the copper epoxy mixture, we calculate approximately 162 sq. ft. with both tunnels (catamaran hulls) from the area masked off and below. We were able to complete this hull with 3 (three) batches of the copper / epoxy consisting of the 15 oz. low V / 7 oz. curing agent/ and
5-6 oz. of the copper powder. In fact we had a little left over and "Started around" again after completing the second tunnel. Actually, we cut the last batch of Copper Powder down just a tad to 14 oz. low V, hair
over 6 oz. of curing agent and 5.5 oz. of copper powder. So, for the entire hull we used 64 oz. of epoxy + curing agent and 17 ozs. of copper powder.

(note: this is a lot better coverage than we quote. The additon of the solvent greatly increases coverage but puts on a thinner coat. You can add enough copper to create copper epoxy putty. Note that a gallon of anything spread out at 1/4 inch thick only covers 6.2 square feet. Goal is to get as much copper on as possible but still be able to apply it and not have roller marks, etc.)

Guess I'd mention one other thing, and that is the brushing technique. At first, I was concerned (especially with the hot weather) with getting on the copper epoxy within a time period before it set up. So, I fell back to a time when I did much painting, and learned to "Put it on" fairly quickly. I would just dip the brush into the copper mixture to the bottom of the bucket and depth starting out was maybe a little over one inch (1"). Could use this for a while, but then the brush would load up and start oozing out, especially when doing the very bottom. Well, I didn't need be that worried. I don't think we had anything set up on us inside of 30 minutes. I then altered technique to "Wipe" one side of the brush on the top of the paint bucket and this kept things in control, but still allowed a fairly rapid work rate. Just a little more dipping into the
bucket.

We're not completed with this project, will be going back to work on boat this weekend. Will email you more as project nears completion. But, my thanks for getting us through this. We had many people stop by and comment, "Oh, can see you're having fun now!" I explained that I really couldn't talk now, as this stuff sets up and need concentrate on what we're doing. But did learn to relax a little and at least say something.

Ken

Phil Napoli has coated the bottom of his 26 ft Bayliner Powerboat with our copper powder and Low V epoxy. He developed the following 'blend' which he found to be ideal for applying by paint pad.

Individual batch sizes of 24 oz of epoxy, 5/8 pound of copper, and 3 oz of xylene sovlent.

(note: he thinks it took about 1 gal of the mix to paint his bottom - about as much as he uses with regular bottom paint. He also said that without the solvent the blend was thick like old fashion bottom paint, with the solvent added it was more like regular paint. Application was by paint pad (he said brushing left marks). Because he thinned the epoxy down, total mil thickness was low. He might have considered a coat of our CM 15 epoxy primer or just the Low V without the copper as an initial coat if we wanted more mil thickness on his hull).

Jim - Another user in Texas:

Rolls on the copper and epoxy unthinned and then uses a squeegee over it to stop drips, etc. Comes back within a few hours for a second coat, rolled on only.

--------------

Another semi-professional user that has done a number of boats reports that you need to sand the freshly applied epoxy/copper to get it to work (and to remove the epoxy covering the top layer of the copper). This will ruin the pretty uniform copper penny look of the finish. The user says that look returns when the boat is sitting in the water (not sure about this - sounds a bit strange to me!).

----------------------

6/05

May I thank you for your pricing. The copper epoxy costs about as much as
normal good quality paint.

I read all of your customer comments and they were helpful. I did not thin
the product as it seemed of good consistency using about 8 oz. of copper to
24 oz of epoxy mix. (fluid measure) I had enough working time to put on 3
mixes with the same 3/8 inch nap roller and tip it out with a brush. It
leveled well with few runs. I had one area that I did not clean well enough
and it fisheyed from the dust on the surface. I sanded this area and made a
paste using the copper powder and some of the filler. I applied this with a
plastic applicator and it filled and smoothed the area well. This only
needed light sanding. I then wet-sanded the bottom with 280 then 320 paper
and launched. I will report on how it works in heavy fouling conditions.

Thanks

Joe

Giving my sailboat a fresh coat of the Low V / copper powder bottom paint. I was very pleased with the results from the first application 3 years ago. --- John M. - comment line from online order

R.O. emailed Progressive Epoxy Polymers (12/20/09)
Hi,
I have been researching different options for a spring bottom painting and have come across a product advertised in XXXXXXXX Magazine. It is a two part, water born epoxy with spherical copper power for loading the paint prior to application. It is Copper Coat Anti-Fouling Paint, has EPA approval for use as a bottom paint and, according to their website ( www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.com) has 2 kg of copper powder per liter of paint. This translates to about 16 pounds per gallon. Have you seen this product and how difficult would it be to load one of your paints with this level of copper?
Thanks in advance. -- R.O.


Hi R.O.

Two things up front: we don't sell copper - epoxy bottom paint. We sell lots of different epoxies and we also sell a very fine copper powder (and other metal powders and epoxy thickeners/fillers). So all we can do is sell you the copper powder for you to blend, mix etc. with whatever you want. I just finished adding it to a water based acrylic to paint the roof of a birdhouse.

Secondly, I checked the website you listed (lots more on that later) - their product is not water based, but rather 'ordinary' 2 part epoxy. Not sure where you got the idea it is waterbased. From my experience, 98% of water based epoxies are only for use on floors.

The product/site you list is misleading. It is a simple basic epoxy with copper added (no problem with that) but then the marketing/sales folks got a hold of it. Lots of missing information and misleading statements. The goal isn't informed customers but rather to separate the customer from his money....

You cannot put 16 pounds of copper into a gallon of epoxy (note: copper powder - copper and air - weight about 1 pound per pint) - at about 6 - 8 pounds per gallon you start making copper putty. You cannot make a copper based coating with that much copper and they don't either. Here comes some of the misleading stuff: their sites claims 2 kg per liter of RESIN. Epoxies are 2 part products, resin and curing agent. Rather oddly on their site they don't tell you the ratio of resin to curing agent but a picture suggests it might be 1 to 1 - thus thinning the resin by half ( or worse).

Their MSDS is dated 2002 (considered out of date and invalid if over 5 years old) shows that the chemicals in the resin account for 54%-65% of the resin weight - so the other 35%-45% is the copper. That is about 3-4 pounds of copper per gallon of resin (not the blend of resin and curing agent you actually work with).

Normally a gallon of mixed epoxy has a coverage rate of about 100-200 sf per gallon. The less coverage the thicker the coating, but drips and sags become a real issue - often better to apply 2 thin coats. Anyway, I calculated their coverage rate and found it to be about 80 sf per gallon. So, it is a pretty thick product - we don't know how thick or thin the epoxy was to start with before the copper was added, but still at 80 sf per gallon, it suggests enough copper was added to make it quite thick.

They also do not mention price, so I have no idea what they want for the product but giving general retail pricing, they probably have a gallon of epoxy at about $70-$90 per gallon and perhaps $40 worth of copper. So, about $110 per gallon would be an expected price that still leaves the vendor making lots of profit.

So, bottom line --- I'm sure it is a functional mix of copper and epoxy worked out by someone who knows what is going on. However, their web site is not being very honest and open with you. It is your call if you want to do try their product.

paul oman

What can go wrong

The mostly likely problem is adhesion failure of the coating to the hull down the line. This rarely happens, or at least we don't often hear of it. There are some thoughts and suggestions.

Nearly all of the epoxies are solvent free or very low solvent levels. The bonding is nearly always strictly a surface bond only. That means the epoxy sticks only to what in on the surface of the hull. It should be pure, clean fiberglass. I think this is not always the case. Sanding the hull grinds fiberglass sanding dust into the hull. I doubt wiping with a hose and or rag removes the ground in dust. Then there is dust from the boatyard that settles on the hull. Washing down the hull with soap could leave a soap film. Old weathered fiberglass could be sort of a weak and crumbling surface. It probably takes a good pressure washing to 'blast' off a lot of this surface contamination.

Another option is a primer. Usually just a solvent thinned epoxy base/primer coat. It could be the same epoxy you're using as the barrier coat, or a cheaper epoxy thinned with solvent. The solvents help the coating soak into the hull a little bit, improving adhesion of that coat. The topcoat of 'regular' epoxy now has a good, fresh, well bonded base coat of primer epoxy to bond to.

Finally I have heard of hull flexing being responsible for epoxy peeling. Epoxies are basically hard and brittle and if the hull flexs a lot something has to give, often it is the epoxy bond that fails..... This one I've only come across once.....

A third-party reseach article on and about copper boat bottoms. Very informative and interesting, thanks to one of our customers for passing along the link - customer reports 7/07 this site/link no longer online - http://www.copper.org/innovations/2003/Nov2003/Cu_hull_sheathing_gg.htm

NSP 120 - SEE WATER GARD 300

WATER GARD 300

More user comments on this product being used as a marine barrier coat at: www.epoxyproducts.com/barrier4u.html

Subject: Re: EPOXY NEWS:FALL NEWSLETTER
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:57:37 -0400
From: Ebb B <eb..........@hotmail.com>
To: Paul Oman <info@epoxyproducts.com>
Organization: Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.


I've applied your Water Gard 300/NSP 120 white tank coating to the exterior below waterline part of my 26' Peason Ariel. I originally got the kit for built-in water tanks, but it worked ok as the prime barrier.

Unable to really experiment I did use xylene to loosen the mix after the first coat tore the rollers apart. (note: epoxies are ‘sticky' and will sometimes damage cheap rollers - there are special rollers for epoxies and/or adhesives). The sanding was time consuming - but easy. I'm adamant about 100% solids epoxies....

Just did the lid this afternoon to the belly tank (the underside of the cabin sole, actually) so I mixed a small amount: 4oz to 2oz. Then added ½ oz xylene (going against the grain!) But this mix brushes out like melted butter on a Thanksgiving turkey. Contrary of what I said earlier (which was that the product cannot be brushed on - rolled, yes. Had no roller tear out on the third and last bottom coat because of the added thinner but was still unable to use a brush).

Tried out a mini roller I have in mind for the tank itself, an epoxy rated skinny 4.5" 'mohair blend' by Wooster. Nice!

- - - - - - - -

Hi Paul,

I had mixed results with using the Water Guard... the product was a lot thicker than expected. You had previously described it as “thick house paint”. My experience suggests that the description should have been “ridiculously thick almost impossible to pour house paint”. The pigmented component has a viscosity roughly equivalent to caulking compound. When mixed with part B, the consistency is something like molasses.

Dave

Reply:

Welcome to the world of epoxies! They are thick. Thinning is OK - it doesn't take much thinning to make a noticable difference in thickness. Thinning a few percent is fine - some contractors in commercial circles always thin no matter what when using any epoxy. The thicker part A is normal, notice how it 'thins' when combined with the part B. Everyone also has a different idea on what makes a good thickness (viscosity). Some like the extra thick (comments include 'You didn't tell me how sore my arm would be when I finished') to folks who like thin enamel coatings.

The temps are also important. Shorter pot life and thinner product at warmer temps (70's and 80's). Sort of like butter, it takes hours and hours for the epoxies to slowly warm up to current air temps.

regards

paul oman

- NOTE THICK COATINGS CAN SAG DURING THE HOURS IT TAKES TO SET THANKS TO GRAVITY AT WORK DURING THOSE HOURS.

The part A of the waterguard 300 can cometimes show signs of epoxy resin crystallization. Warming the product to 100 plus degrees, say in a cabinet with a light bulb, or in a microwave for a while will melt the crystals and turn the product creamy smooth again.

This happens maybe once a season... (mostly in commercial pools, only twice in residential pools in the many years we have sold this epoxy).

For example:

The product you shipped me "watergard 300" Did NOT work at all on my pool. I followed the mixing/application instructions exactly and the only place it "stuck" was to the previously painted surface... Not the bare concrete. It just "bubbled and lifted".

Note how it bonded to the underwater painted surface - it is the concrete, not the epoxy that is the issue here.

In saltwater marine environments 'micro-electric fields' can be present that will reject the epoxy (see http://www.epoxyproducts.com/charge4u.html)

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