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EMAIL LINK info@epoxyproducts.com
ACRYLIC POLY
Feedback from user applying to boat hull. Two coats rolled on with foam roller (may have used brush too for 'tip and roll'). Sanded between coats to remove any roughness. Last coat with for mirror gloss. Thinned the product 30% with xylene. Reported an awesome gloss finish coat. Noted that he could still smell the solvents 24 hours later but perhaps a bit of tackiness, but rock hard after 48 hours.
The solvents in the coating may lift or remove the painted coatings
in your mixing rod thus tinting the Acrylic Poly with an undesired color.
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Although urethane coatings are NEVER offically recommended for immersion service, several customers (and myself)
have successfully tested it underwater.
ALUTHANE
Feedback for application to boat hull has its own page www.epoxyproducts.com/aluthane.html
BASIC NO BLUSH
Subject: Sugary resin
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005
From: Jim
To: Paul Oman
Hi Paul,
I have a question about shelf life of the No Blush 2 resin I bought last April 21st (invoice 5922). I used about
1/3 of the 1.5 gal then, and stored in rest in a cool dry room. I used a little more in September, and it was fine,
but When I opened it in December, it was shot. The hardener is fine, but the resin looks just like sugared honey.
Would a slight amount of contaminination cause that? I was careful, and I know I didn't switch any tools from one
can to the other. Is there anyway to reclaim the granulating mess? More reasonable question: Is it possible to
buy more resin without the hardener? Thanks for any advice,
Jim
-----------------
Hi Jim,
Good news. It is not a problem. Most clear epoxy resins will crystallize over time just like honey. Fix is the
same. Heat it up in oven or microwave or warm spot. Say 100 - 125 degrees for a few hours (or minutes in the microwave)
will restore it back to new.
It will probably tend to re-crystallize more easily now as even with melting there always seems to be a 'micro-crystal'
seed that will start re-crystallizing going again in a few weeks. Same fix - just melt them away!
Yes, we do sell just part A or B to our existing customers to fix, mistakes, spills, etc.
regards
Paul Oman
more info on crystallizing epoxy-
click here
BASIC NO BLUSH - TURNING WHITE!
From time to time we get reports of the epoxy turning white within about 12 hours of application. These reports
usually happen in the fall or late summer. I've had exactly this same thing happen on canoe seats I was coating/sealing
with clear marine epoxy (not Basic No Blush). The cause is mositure/dew/fog forming on the hours old epoxy at just
the wrong time during its cure cycle. Trapped mini water droplets look white (we've also seen the same on patio
stones coated/recoated with epoxy after it rains etc.). It is more common in the fall with lower nightime temps
that approach or pass thru the dew point. Which is why fog is usually a fall/spring event. It is easy to forget
that epoxy curing is an exothermic event and moisture can affect it. Note the Amine Blush is a waxy film forming
due to unseen moisture in the air during the epoxy cure. Many epoxy blush - the better ones, like our no-blush
have little or no blush. The white coloring seen in this example is well beyond epoxy blush and is actually 'water'
now in the epoxy. The fix is not to epoxy when temps etc. are expected to drop a good bit in the next few hours
(like in the fall!) -- i.e. outside afternoon or evening epoxy work at those critical times of the year could be
trouble. We don't see this much during the height of summer when evening temps generally stay high and well above
the dew points. All you can do is and off the epoxy and recoat.
5/31/07 - update - yes it is water - perhaps a splash or bird pee or something during the critical 'set up time'
as the epoxy begins to harden.
BASIC NO BLUSH - WINTER CURE
3/08
The last two months I've been using the winter cure you sell, in several applications, all of them in unheated
areas. The weather here in the Pacific Northwest is very humid and about 35 - 45 degrees. In all cases the material
has set up enough to sand for repeated coats in 24 hours! In a couple instances, I've thrown patches on and even
painted them the next day, because they were outside and we seldom go two days without rain this time of year.
If I'd done that with the Sys. Three (blush) I've used for years, the paint would slow the cure for weeks and I'd
eventually have to sand it all off because it would not stick.
I have a steady flow of old restorations in the works, so you will be hearing from me again! I've passed on some
of your data sheets to shipwright friends of mine, so hopefully they will be in touch, too. In addition to such
a reliable product, the pricing is right! Thanks again, and good luck on the kayak.
peace, michael
BIO CLEAR 810
In a small container (plastic cup) I am able to pour several inches of this product without the 'heat of reaction' melting the cup, frothing the epoxy, or distorting the smooth surface of the epoxy. However, in large pours we have had reports of stress cracking in the epoxy. One was a very large pour of many gallons - thickness unkown, and the other was a 3 gallon pour at 1 inch thick. Solution is thinner pours - say 1/2 inch or less per pour layer.
1) have had no reports of problems covering new photographs, but customer coating an old photo reported it turned red/orange when contacted with the epoxy. No reports of printed materials having problems with the inks running due to the epoxy except for some very cheap crape paper type party decorations.
2) Customer glued down coins with a drop of hot glue. The space around the drop of hot glue on the bottom of the coin is filled with air and when the epoxy was poured a ring of bubbles appeared around the edge of the coin.
3) After 20 or 30 minutes past the time you pour do not attempt to pop bubbles with a torch or do other things. The epoxy is well on its way to setting up and disturbing it can results in 'ridges', ripples, etc.
As a professional woodworker, I was recently contracted to make a 14 foot curling table for a customer. After doing
some research, I came across your Bio-Clear 810 epoxy product and chose it for the price and the eccentric web
site. I figured that such a "different" web site MUST be offset by a truly quality product.
I was right!
This was the first time I had ever attempted an epoxy pour, so after some practice and reading the provided literature,
I figured out the technique for pouring a 14 foot x 22" top.
My customer was delighted with the product and I hope to sell many more of these curling tables in the United States.
Thanks guys !
John P Rose (10/06)
330-416-8207
http://customfurniturecreations.com
Bio Clear 810 resin (part A) is quick to crystallize and turn milky (sometimes within a month of manufacture). Warming the resin at about 100 degrees overnight (or in a microwave for about 15 minutes) will fix it and make it clear again. See our page on crystallization of epoxies. www.epoxyproducts.com/crystal.html
I used a palm sander with 60 grit initially and worked my way up to 400. I then used an electric buffer with plastic
polish, they sell it in fine medium and coarse and you work your way up like sandpaper. I finished off with Meguiars
plasticX.
As for the polyurethane it was Minwax brand and high gloss. I applied it with a foam roller initially and smoothed
out the bubbles with a wide brush. I used the roller to put the polyurethane down in a hurry so it would be wet
still and level out smoother. I was told after the second coat to use a lambs wool pad like they use for hard wood
floors and I did with pretty good results. The only way it would have looked better was if it was done in a completely
dust free environment. The finish is quite clear and any scratches that occur now I just use the PlasticX with
the buffer.
The wood blocks were pine I assume and they bubbled like crazy. Tiny bubbles and hundreds of them. Polyurethane
any wood beforehand and be safe. (see picture at www.epoxyproducts.com/bartop.html)
Thanks again
James
Notes from Progressive Epoxy Polymers (the sellers)
just a few additional (or repeat) comments.
1) mix well but don't try to get every last drop of the mix product. What collects in the bottom of the mix pail
after sitting empty for several minutes is epoxy from the sides, bottom and bottom/side edge. This is not well
mixed and don't use it.
2) if the part A is cloudy or milky it has crystallized a bit. Heat to about 100 or 110 degrees overnight, (say
in a box or cabinet with a light bulb) or in a microwave (for about 15 minutes). It will turn clear again and is
ready for use. Crystallization is common in clear epoxy resins.
3) Nearly all of our customers are first time users and, excluding a drip or two, a few bubbles, etc. the epoxy
pours pretty much go well for everyone. When folks have problems, those problems come back to us so products that
have a lot of issues are just too much of a headache for us to sell. While we sell a lot of the Bio Clear 810,
it is not a 'problem product'. The point I am trying to make is that people usually get the results they want or
expect (or can live with!).
4) Keep some unmixed epoxy aside to repair/fix anything that goes wrong. For example you might drill out an air
bubble and then fill the hole with more 810.
5) some folks 'test' their surfaces for leaks and level-ness with water before using the 810. Then drain water
and let dry before using the 810. Better to find the leaks etc. with 'cheap' water first!
6) the end result is sort of a clear medium hard plastic. It can be sanded and drilled and shaped. Then polished
back to smooth (maybe clear) with fine sandpaper/grit (sorry I don't know if we are talking 1000 grit stuff etc.
- haven't done it but others have). You can also remove 'cloudy sanding scratches' with a thin clear coat of any
kind of clear coating (I have people 'test' this with clear nail polish' over a cloudy scratched surface).
7) one of our semi pro customers likes to do a final thin topcoat instead of the entire thickness in one pour.
He says it gives a smoother surface. We assume to at that point bubbles and other issues are 'fixed' in the previousl
pours. That said, I think most folks just do a single pour.
8) you can pour the next layer as soon as the first layer is semi-sold and the temperature of the first pour is
back to room temperature. This is probably just a few hours later.
Paul (10/07) wrote:
For those of you who didn't know, a major project of mine, with a lot of help from my friends, this summer has
been to build a coffee table from scratch with the table top being old cigar box tops. Most of these tops came
from cigar boxes I had saved from way back when, when I was smoking cigars. The idea was to build a table, lay
out the box tops and then put a top over it of epoxy. I'm quite certain I made every possible mistake, but it was
all in practice runs. This is the table finished and in my living room. It looks fantastic.
Regarding “advise” for others who are interested in doing a project like this –
1. Read all instructions.
2. Re-read all instructions.
3. Follow all instructions.
4. Be absolutely certain you use parts A and B in the correct amounts.
5. The mix is critical. Do everything you can to mix thoroughly, but do not mix too fast. These bubbles are hard to “heat” out after the pour.
6. The set time is for real. Don’t dawdle.
A recent customer pointed out that when coating over newspaper text in a bar that the epoxy (as would any similar coat coating) turned the paper 'clear' and the printing on the back of the page clearly showed thru on-top/overlaying the text on the front of the page. Result - a non readable garble of 'ink'.
LOW V
One user reports a 'sanding window' at about 6 - 12 hours where the Low V is hard enough to sand without gumming up the sandpaper, but soft enough to 'sand' several time faster than when the epoxy is a lot harder, such as a day or two or three later.
(note: also had a user that decided adding the fumed silica thickener was really necessary to keep the Low V epoxy from running. Saw a big difference between using it and not using it. Note too that our EZ Thick, thickener will stir into the epoxy much easier than the fumed silica, but that fumed siica has been the favorite thickener of epoxy for many many years. Fumed silica is often called by one of its largest brand names Cab-o-sil (tm)).
(SEE WWW.EPOXYPRODUCTS.COM/COPPER4U.HTML)
Hi Paul:
... was finally ready to begin coating the hull with the Low V late Sunday afternoon.
And, after looking around both in my town and Port zzzzzz, was unable to locate the Xylene thinner, so just went
with the low V, but tried to add some fumed silica. However, we had wind and was difficult to get this in with
the epoxy before it "Blew away!"
(note: also had a user that decided adding the fumed silica thickener was really necessary to keep the Low V epoxy from running. Saw a big difference between using it and not using it. Note too that our EZ Thick, thickener will stir into the epoxy much easier than the fumed silica, but that fumed siica has been the favorite thickener of epoxy for many many years. Fumed silica is often called by one of its largest brand names Cab-o-sil (tm)).
Another problem was that I poured the Low V and curing agent into a roller tray and
wind could get at this
perhaps more easily than a bucket. I had thought the 9" paint pad would work well, but soon had the epoxy
dripping off this pad and all over the place. Seemed especially bad in areas that I had to "Look up,"
like
directly under the boat. Ours is a catamaran and has much surface area similar to a ceiling. The Low V just would
load up in the pad and any pressure would result in the stuff coming off the pad and onto the
handle, dripping, etc. This was more of a mess than I could deal with, so just got rid of the pads, went with a
3" brush. Could control things a whole lot better with the brush. We did get many runs, but generally were
able to "Go back" over these before things got really set up. We just got one coat of low V on the hull,
then cleaned up and made the drive back home. So, maybe this was just me, but I do not think the paint pad (Rubbermaid)
works well with the Low V.
(for watery thin epoxies, like the Low V, use a brush, not a roller)
So, what did I learn:1. Not to mix quite as large of quantity as I did. I mixed 32oz. of low V with 16 oz. of curing
agent for a total of approximately 48 ozs. Both wife and myself had this quantity in a roller pan. Ended up throwing
some out as could not use.
(note: temp was about 80 degrees F)
2. The paint pad is not the tool to use with the Low V. For us, the brush worked a whole lot better.
3. Wear a hat, got some of the mixture in hair, and today it's a mess! Has anyone commented on the difficulty of
using a hair brush when your hair is part cured epoxy??
4. If adding the silica, and probable also goes for the copper powder, dump everything into a bucket and get some
mixing sticks (paddles first). I did not have any good tool for mixing.
....... Just happy to pass along the information based upon our experience. I guess I would just preference remarks
with "This worked for us" based upon temperature and humidity. But we pretty much stuck with those ratios
and amounts, and with two people brushing could use the material in the time interval outlined. As for coverage
of the copper epoxy mixture, we calculate approximately 162 sq. ft. with both tunnels (catamaran hulls) from the
area masked off and below. We were able to complete this hull with 3 (three) batches of the copper / epoxy consisting
of the 15 oz. low V / 7 oz. curing agent/ and
5-6 oz. of the copper powder. In fact we had a little left over and "Started around" again after completing
the second tunnel. Actually, we cut the last batch of Copper Powder down just a tad to 14 oz. low V, hair
over 6 oz. of curing agent and 5.5 oz. of copper powder. So, for the entire hull we used 64 oz. of epoxy + curing
agent and 17 ozs. of copper powder.
(note: this is a lot better coverage than we quote. The additon of the solvent greatly increases coverage but puts on a thinner coat. You can add enough copper to create copper epoxy putty. Note that a gallon of anything spread out at 1/4 inch thick only covers 6.2 square feet. Goal is to get as much copper on as possible but still be able to apply it and not have roller marks, etc.)
Guess I'd mention one other thing, and that is the brushing technique. At first, I was concerned (especially with
the hot weather) with getting on the copper epoxy within a time period before it set up. So, I fell back to a time
when I did much painting, and learned to "Put it on" fairly quickly. I would just dip the brush into
the copper mixture to the bottom of the bucket and depth starting out was maybe a little over one inch (1").
Could use this for a while, but then the brush would load up and start oozing out, especially when doing the very
bottom. Well, I didn't need be that worried. I don't think we had anything set up on us inside of 30 minutes. I
then altered technique to "Wipe" one side of the brush on the top of the paint bucket and this kept things
in control, but still allowed a fairly rapid work rate. Just a little more dipping into the
bucket.
We're not completed with this project, will be going back to work on boat this weekend. Will email you more as
project nears completion. But, my thanks for getting us through this. We had many people stop by and comment, "Oh,
can see you're having fun now!" I explained that I really couldn't talk now, as this stuff sets up and need
concentrate on what we're doing. But did learn to relax a little and at least say something.
Ken
Phil Napoli has coated the bottom of his 26 ft Bayliner Powerboat
with our copper powder and Low V epoxy. He developed the following 'blend' which he found to be ideal for applying
by paint pad.
Individual batch sizes of 24 oz of epoxy, 5/8 pound of copper, and 3 oz of xylene sovlent.
(note: he thinks it took about 1 gal of the mix to paint his bottom - about as much as he uses with regular bottom paint. He also said that without the solvent the blend was thick like old fashion bottom paint, with the solvent added it was more like regular paint. Application was by paint pad (he said brushing left marks). Because he thinned the epoxy down, total mil thickness was low. He might have considered a coat of our CM 15 epoxy primer or just the Low V without the copper as an initial coat if we wanted more mil thickness on his hull).
Jim - Another user in Texas:
Rolls on the copper and epoxy unthinned and then uses a squeegee over it to stop drips, etc. Comes back within
a few hours for a second coat, rolled on only.
--------------
Another semi-professional user that has done a number of boats reports that you need to sand the freshly applied epoxy/copper to get it to work (and to remove the epoxy covering the top layer of the copper). This will ruin the pretty uniform copper penny look of the finish. The user says that look returns when the boat is sitting in the water (not sure about this - sounds a bit strange to me!).
----------------------
6/05
May I thank you for your pricing. The copper epoxy costs about as much as
normal good quality paint.
I read all of your customer comments and they were helpful. I did not thin
the product as it seemed of good consistency using about 8 oz. of copper to
24 oz of epoxy mix. (fluid measure) I had enough working time to put on 3
mixes with the same 3/8 inch nap roller and tip it out with a brush. It
leveled well with few runs. I had one area that I did not clean well enough
and it fisheyed from the dust on the surface. I sanded this area and made a
paste using the copper powder and some of the filler. I applied this with a
plastic applicator and it filled and smoothed the area well. This only
needed light sanding. I then wet-sanded the bottom with 280 then 320 paper
and launched. I will report on how it works in heavy fouling conditions.
Thanks
Joe
The mostly likely problem is adhesion failure of the coating to the hull down the line. This rarely happens, or at least we don't often hear of it. There are some thoughts and suggestions.
Nearly all of the epoxies are solvent free or very low solvent levels. The bonding is nearly always strictly a surface bond only. That means the epoxy sticks only to what in on the surface of the hull. It should be pure, clean fiberglass. I think this is not always the case. Sanding the hull grinds fiberglass sanding dust into the hull. I doubt wiping with a hose and or rag removes the ground in dust. Then there is dust from the boatyard that settles on the hull. Washing down the hull with soap could leave a soap film. Old weathered fiberglass could be sort of a weak and crumbling surface. It probably takes a good pressure washing to 'blast' off a lot of this surface contamination.
Another option is a primer. Usually just a solvent thinned epoxy base/primer coat. It could be the same epoxy you're using as the barrier coat, or a cheaper epoxy thinned with solvent. The solvents help the coating soak into the hull a little bit, improving adhesion of that coat. The topcoat of 'regular' epoxy now has a good, fresh, well bonded base coat of primer epoxy to bond to.
Finally I have heard of hull flexing being responsible for epoxy peeling. Epoxies are basically hard and brittle and if the hull flexs a lot something has to give, often it is the epoxy bond that fails..... This one I've only come across once.....
A third-party reseach article on and about copper boat bottoms. Very informative and interesting, thanks to one of our customers for passing along the link - customer reports 7/07 this site/link no longer online - http://www.copper.org/innovations/2003/Nov2003/Cu_hull_sheathing_gg.htm
NSP 120 - SEE WATER GARD 300
WATER GARD 300
Subject: Re: EPOXY NEWS:FALL NEWSLETTER
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:57:37 -0400
From: Ebb B <eb..........@hotmail.com>
To: Paul Oman <info@epoxyproducts.com>
Organization: Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
I've applied your Water Gard 300/NSP 120 white tank coating to the exterior below waterline part of my 26' Peason
Ariel. I originally got the kit for built-in water tanks, but it worked ok as the prime barrier.
Unable to really experiment I did use xylene to loosen the mix after the first coat tore the rollers apart. (note:
epoxies are ‘sticky' and will sometimes damage cheap rollers - there are special rollers for epoxies and/or adhesives).
The sanding was time consuming - but easy. I'm adamant about 100% solids epoxies....
Just did the lid this afternoon to the belly tank (the underside of the cabin sole, actually) so I mixed a small
amount: 4oz to 2oz. Then added ½ oz xylene (going against the grain!) But this mix brushes out like melted
butter on a Thanksgiving turkey. Contrary of what I said earlier (which was that the product cannot be brushed
on - rolled, yes. Had no roller tear out on the third and last bottom coat because of the added thinner but was
still unable to use a brush).
Tried out a mini roller I have in mind for the tank itself, an epoxy rated skinny 4.5" 'mohair blend' by Wooster.
Nice!
- - - - - - - -
Hi Paul,
I had mixed results with using the Water gard... the product was a lot thicker than expected. You had previously
described it as “thick house paint”. My experience suggests that the description should have been “ridiculously
thick almost impossible to pour house paint”. The pigmented component has a viscosity roughly equivalent to caulking
compound. When mixed with part B, the consistency is something like molasses.
Dave
Reply:
Welcome to the world of epoxies! They are thick. Thinning is OK - it doesn't take much thinning to make a noticable difference in thickness. Thinning a few percent is fine - some contractors in commercial circles always thin no matter what when using any epoxy. The thicker part A is normal, notice how it 'thins' when combined with the part B. Everyone also has a different idea on what makes a good thickness (viscosity). Some like the extra thick (comments include 'You didn't tell me how sore my arm would be when I finished') to folks who like thin enamel coatings.
The temps are also important. Shorter pot life and thinner product at warmer temps (70's and 80's). Sort of like butter, it takes hours and hours for the epoxies to slowly warm up to current air temps.
regards
paul oman
- NOTE THICK COATINGS CAN SAG DURING THE HOURS IT TAKES TO SET THANKS TO GRAVITY AT WORK DURING THOSE HOURS.
The part A of the waterguard 300 can cometimes show signs of epoxy resin crystallization. Warming the product to 100 plus degrees, say in a cabinet with a light bulb, or in a microwave for a while will melt the crystals and turn the product creamy smooth again.
------------------
Knowledge is Power - We like informed consumers!
Learn the basics of epoxy at our educational EPOXY 101 page - Click Here.
Finally, email us back with your questions or comments before you buy - EMAIL HERE
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